Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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nosimpleway
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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 3:02 pm

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Nanami: You think so?????? Looked like just a bunch of old men talking to me.
Viktor: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. I guess you're right. Man, I'm tired out from just sitting in there. Let's head to Leona's place.
Jowy: ...........................

(Twenty-seven!)

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Anabelle: Well, just part of my job. Nobody's giving full cooperation, but nobody wants anyone destroyed by Highland either.
Viktor: So what is it? You didn't come here to make small talk.
Anabelle: Viktor, I need you to somehow slow down the Highland Army. It will take 7 days to gather all of the State forces. But the Highland Army will arrive here in 5 days. 2 days would be enough. Please just buy us 2 days.
Apple: 2 days.... We battle outside Muse, and maybe bloody their noses a little. Yeah, I think I can buy you 2 days.
Viktor: You'll never change. You ask for crazy things like they're nothing. The idea of us alone trying to stop that Luca Blight....
Anabelle: I'm counting on you, Viktor. Also, we'll be expecting reinforcements from the Matilda Knights to arrive early.
Flik: Well if it's just slowing them down, I think I can handle it.
Anabelle: Thanks, handsome.
VIktor: Well err... hey, that's my job.... Plus if it's a request from a fine lady like you, I could never refuse.
Jowy: Ummm........ Please let us fight with you.
Anabelle: Jowy, Muteiu.... It was wrong of me to get you guys involved in this whole mess. Forgive me. But you don't need to do any more than you already have. This is a problem for us adults.
Jowy: No... we want to fight. We'll help you slow down the Highland Army. Muteiu, you'll fight too, won't you?
Muteiu: Of course.
Anabelle: Muteiu, Jowy, Nanami. ....Don't get yourself killed. When the battle is over, come back and visit me. I'll tell you all about Master Genkaku.
Nanami: Okay.... Yes, yes!
Anabelle: Well, I've got to get back. Viktor, do a good job for us. I know you will.
Viktor: Yeah, well you're right.

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Nanami comes to wake everyone up in the morning, but this time it's subverted.

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There's quick recap in the tavern, but we already know what's happening from that last :words: I just finished typing out.

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So we're back on the field of battle.

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nosimpleway
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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 3:14 pm

Music: Battlefield Without Light
One of the more well-known bugs in Suikoden 2 is that several of the songs weren't coded so that they would be correctly read off of the CD. Of the three army battle themes, two of them are affected by this bug, so while Battlefield Without Light is (probably) the music that should be playing here, in my game this fight had no background music at all.

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The battle begins! But hey, see that one infantry unit over on the right, by himself? He's not even in a Highland uniform...

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Flik: Gilbert is it? I can't believe he's working for Highland.
Apple: Do you.... know him? If only you could get him to switch sides...

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Well, I certainly know how to get his attention, if that's what you mean.

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Flik: How about it, Gilbert? Why don't you join our side? A proud warrior like you shouldn't take money from a scum like Luca Blight!!!
Gilbert: I guess this.... is fate... Okay, I'll do it.

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Solon Jhee: Gilbert!!! You dare betray us!!!!
Gilbert: Sorry. I'll send you a refund.

And that's... kind of the goal in this battle. Gilbert never shows up again if you don't pick him up here, so most of what you're trying to accomplish is to deal enough damage to him that he switches sides. Thankfully, Flik has Tsai in his unit, and the combination of Flik's Cavalry mobility and Tsai's Fire Spear reach mean the AI often does the job for you.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 3:26 pm

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As promised, a few units of Matilda knights show up to help. Now Solon Jhee has to split up his army to handle the defense of Muse from the southeast and the Matilda knights pressing from the southwest. Why the soldiers from Matilda, a place northwest of Muse, didn't just attack the flanks of the Highland Army directly is never touched upon.

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Of course, Gilbert's unit is still halfway between Muse and the Highland army, and he's already wounded. So it's not unusual for him to get attacked as the Highlanders advance and end up wiped out. As a small mercy, I don't think it's possible for him to die here when his unit is removed from the map.

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Miklotov's units aren't doing so hot, either, but get a few good licks in.

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Now that he has his Bright Shield Rune, Muteiu's special ability is activated: he can restore damage to all units in a two-panel radius from himself. Since the weak infantry units are good only as meatshields, this keeps them on their feet and doing their job for another turn or two.

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Miklotov: What are you saying, Camus!! Our knights should turn our backs on the enemy and run?!!!
Camus: It's a knight's duty to follow the orders of his liege lord. Have you forgotten your oath?
Miklotov: Damn.............

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And in a wink, they're gone.

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Viktor: It looks like someone is up to some nasty tricks here. If Muse falls, next it'll be your necks on the line....
Jowy: . . . . . . . . . . . .

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But despite now possessing only one front to attack and a strong numerical advantage. Solon Jhee retreats.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 3:29 pm

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Anita's still here, waiting on her wine. Leona remains uncooperative.

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Nanami: Well...... Muteiu....... About this battle, do you.... No.... forget about it. There's no choice, I guess... We have to protect ouselves.... Goodnight, Muteiu.

We have to learn how to spell "ourselves", too.

Meanwhile, down the hall...

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Kage makes a cameo reappearance, but without a portrait. I guess he's only involved this once.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 3:38 pm

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No complaining about having to get up early? You're not up to anything shifty, are you?

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Nanami: I'm here too.
Viktor: Oh? Sorry, sorry. You're going to see Anabelle today, aren't you? Tell her what a great job I did, okay.
Nanami: Who did a great job???
Flik: Ha ha ha ha ha. That's right. Anyway, don't go outside of the city. The Highland Army is all around.
Jowy: Okay, let's go, Muteiu. Don't you want to hear about Master Genkaku?

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Leona finally gives us a glass of wine, which we deliver to Anita (despite Anita having a full bottle of sake right there on the table, having clearly given up on us). Unfortunately, getting Anita to give us another prompt to help her requires hitting the world map and coming back, and now the besieged city is cut off by the guards at the gate. We can't leave, so Anita never gives us another chance to be nice, so we don't recruit her. Oh well!

Off we go to see Anabelle.

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Gustav: That's not what I'm saying. But as long as we don't know the Highland Army's intentions, I'm not going to commit my troops.
Granmeyer: I think their intentions are clear. Perhaps you're just frightened?
Gustav: How dare you! It was the South Window Army who retreated at the first sight of blood during the Scarlet Moon Empire war!
Granmeyer: You're a fool.... War isn't a gambling game.......
Anabelle: Stop it, both of you. It's no use arguing.
Gustav: In any case, we're not ready to commit troops. That's my decision.

Gustav storms out.

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Nanami: Yes, of course. Let's go Muteiu, Jowy.

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But Jowy remains.

Anabelle: What is it?
Jowy: Why are you fighting, Lady? What do you hope to get from this war?
Anabelle: I'll get nothing from it. I fight so we won't lose. I was born in Muse, raised in Muse. It's natural that I want to protect her.
Jowy: ...........................

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 3:43 pm

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Nanami: We saw her, but she told us to come back at night. She was really busy. It looked like she was arguing about something.
Flik: Yeah, well... that figures. She hasn't seen with her own eyes how scary Blight is.
Pilika: ................????
Jowy: I'm sorry........... Pilika. Nanami, could you play with Pilika for a little while?
Nanami: Huh? What? .....sure I can.... but what's up?
Jowy: ..............................

(Thirty! That's probably about as long as they get without a line break.)

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What's he up to?

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Meeting with the ninja again.

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Jowy: ........I'm sorry..... Muteiu......... I can't say right now..... Muteiu.............. This war isn't going to end for a long time. You and Nanami should run far away..... ....................... If........... If I was ever killed.... I want you to take care of Pilika.........

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 3:51 pm

And now, the scene that launched a thousand ships:

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Anabelle: I don't have time to sleep.
Viktor: In that case, how about we have a little drink?
Anabelle: Ho ho. Sounds nice.

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Viktor: When my fort burned down, this one bottle was all I could carry.
Anabelle: Mmmm, nice bouquet.
Viktor: So how is it?
Anabelle: Don't stare at me like that. I feel like you're looking right into my heart.
Viktor: Sorry. Just a bad habit of mine.
Anabelle: That's right.
Viktor: ....You're a tough one.
Anabelle: Whew............... The people of this city are sleeping peacefully now. But the flames of war are coming here soon. Even if we gather all the State troops, I wonder what chance we'll have when we come face to face with Luca Blight's unit......
Viktor: Well, about fifty-fifty I guess.
Anabelle: I can't... I mean 'We can't' lose. If we lose, we lose everything. All of those lives....... When I think about it, sometimes I get so sad I even think that maybe we should just surrender quietly.......
Viktor: A leader can't think that way. Everyone's fighting as hard as they can. They all have something they want to defend. You do too. Even if it's to save your life, there are some things you just don't do. At least that's the way I see it.

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Viktor: I need all my strength tomorrow. After this drink, I'm gonna get to bed. Lack of sleep makes ya weak.
Anabelle: Say, if I was born in a different time, a different place, and if I was a little shorter, I might have been a good girlfriend for you, huh.
Viktor: Ha ha ha. Well, you're just fine the way you are if you ask me. Maybe I'm not though.

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...when I said it launched a thousand ships, you didn't think I meant watercraft, did you?

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 3:59 pm

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Pilika: ....................
Nanami: What is it, Pilika? Huh? What? Oh? Jowy? It's strange, I haven't seen him. There's nothing to worry about. He came home before like he promised. Besides, Muteiu and I will be back soon, so be a good girl, okay? ....... Let's go, Muteiu.

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Guard: Yes.... I heard. Anabelle is in her private room down the hall. Your friend is already back there.

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...Viktor? I don't know if we're really friends honestly...

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Anabelle: Please.... But Jowy, what do you want at this hour?

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Anabelle: You're not joking, are you?
Jowy: Please. Don't scream.
Anabelle: I don't want to believe it, but.....
Jowy: Forgive me.
Anabelle: To protect Muse and the State... and to allow the people here to live full, rich lives.... that is what I must do... Do you have something like that? Something you'll do at all cost?
Jowy: Yes.... I also have something I must do.
Anabelle: Can you bear the burden, Jowy? Do you really have the resolve?
Jowy: Yes, I've got a reason to bear that burden... and I will.
Anabelle: .................... Even if I call for help, I suppose I can't stop that knife... Would you at least let me finish this glass? It's from a close friend.... It would be sad to waste it.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 4:06 pm

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Nanami: What? What? No! What happened!!!..... Anabelle is............
Jowy: Forgive me.......... Muteiu.
Nanami: W... Wait! ....Jowy!!...

But he's gone.

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Jess: What the........ You!!! What have you done!! What the hell have you done!! Explain yourself!!!!
State Soldier: Lord Jess, The Highland Army has entered the city!
Jess: What! How could that have happened so quickly!!
State Soldier: It was opened from the inside. Someone must be working with them!!!
Jess: What!!! Okay, Muteiu. Don't move! Hey! Call a doctor!!!

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Anabelle: Tell Jess.... I don't need.... ....a doctor.... Muteiu.... Genkaku's son..... You.... I meant to..... apologize.... to you...... For what... the State... ....and I.... did... to... Genkaku..... Muteiu..... Nanami..... Did you..... were you... were you happy..... with your life with Genkaku?

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Don't ask stupid questions.

Anabelle: ......Is that so......... Th....then....at least..... I can..... rest........ Hurry.... hurry and escape..... The Highland Army.... they... they'll come here first..... Hurry......... I..... I.... I have... ...a last.... request.... Don't.... die.... Muteiu..... ....Nanami........ Live....... Now hurry.... Hurry and run!!!!!!

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Sun May 11, 2014 4:14 pm

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Well, I hadn't forgotten.

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You're attacked in random encounters throughout Muse now. To drive home the loss from Jowy's betrayal, you can't just single-turn all of the soldiers in a fight with the Buddy Attack anymore.

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Leona: They're going to all rendezvous in South Window. I'm getting ready to get out of here! You should escape too. A boat runs from Coronet, south of here, to South Window. What are you waiting for? Hurry up and run!!!!!!

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Nanami: How many times have we run like this....
Pilika: ...................
Nanami: Wait! Pilika! We can't go back!!!
Pilika: Waah...... waaahhh..........
Nanami: It's okay.... it's okay... Pilika honey......... Jowy will be fine........ We can't go back.....

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Nanami: Pilika... she finally fell asleep. Hey........... Muteiu. Is it true?..... Did Jowy really.... do that to Anabelle.....? ....No, he would never do such a thing. So what are we going to do now? Do you know what I want? I want to go somewhere far away. Far from all this war, somewhere in the mountains maybe. We could live a quiet life. We could farm a small field, just the 3 of us......

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Nanami: Wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? Liar!........ I'm sorry.......... you're right. That will never happen now. Forget about Jowy.......... I'm tired now............ I'm going to sleep. Goodnight, Muteiu.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Thad » Sun May 11, 2014 4:38 pm

nosimpleway wrote:Why the soldiers from Matilda, a place northwest of Muse, didn't just attack the flanks of the Highland Army directly is never touched upon.


Maybe not, but:

nosimpleway wrote:Image
Miklotov: What are you saying, Camus!! Our knights should turn our backs on the enemy and run?!!!
Camus: It's a knight's duty to follow the orders of his liege lord. Have you forgotten your oath?
Miklotov: Damn.............

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And in a wink, they're gone.

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Viktor: It looks like someone is up to some nasty tricks here. If Muse falls, next it'll be your necks on the line....
Jowy: . . . . . . . . . . . .


Gorudo's clearly not very committed to this fight.

At the very least, he's an arrogant ass who's willing to put up a face-saving token effort to defend Muse but isn't really interested in anything that doesn't affect Matilda directly.

At worst? Maybe he wants Muse to fall. It would strengthen Matilda as the leading military power in the region.

nosimpleway wrote:And now, the scene that launched a thousand ships:

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IIRC, Theme of a Moonlit Night plays during this scene. The whole thing's sort of a mirror to Odessa's conversation with McDohl in the first game right before Shit Gets Real.

nosimpleway wrote:Image


And it just did.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Friday » Mon May 12, 2014 1:04 am

I'm getting serious Ramza/Delita vibes going on here

not exactly the same

in fact it's quite different, but

strangely, I actually like Delita's character and arc, while so far I dislike Jowy
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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Thad » Mon May 12, 2014 2:04 am

It's pretty strikingly similar. And it gets more similar from here.

I'd say the major difference is that Delita's motivations are selfish and Jowy's aren't. Jowy and Riou really are two sides of the same coin -- essentially similar characters who come from the same place and are lifelong friends but who end up on opposite sides of a conflict. This highlights, to some extent, that there is no truly "right" side in the war -- yes, Luca Blight is cartoonishly evil, but there are some pretty evil characters on the State side, too. This is a war between elites, and it's the common folk who get fucked -- yeah, that's a common theme with various games I can think of that have "Tactics" in their titles, too.

(That Delita is a commoner and motivated by selfishness and Jowy is an aristocrat motivated by the Greater Good has its own set of uncomfortable class implications that we could probably talk about at some length. Of course, that's also probably what makes Delita a more interesting character.)

Of course, there's also the nontrivial theme of fate and the manipulations of the True Runes that runs through the Suikoden series to consider. Riou and Jowy were bound to wind up at odds because Sword and Shield have been at war since literally the beginning of time.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Friday » Mon May 12, 2014 2:41 am

I'd say what makes me like Delita, in the end, is just how goddamn effective he is at manipulating and intimidating everyone around him (including Ramza) into doing exactly what he wants so he can become King.

The death of his sister at the hands of Albus, a highborn (and a real fuckhead besides) is what launches Delita's quest for power, of course. Delita becomes a man with nothing to lose, a man willing to risk everything. As Cancer Man once said, that's the worst kind of enemy.

The ending scene after the credits is very, very key to Delita's character: Does he or does he not actually love the Princess? He's been shown to lie to get what he wants, and he sure manipulated the fuck out of her when he wasn't bullying the shit out of her. Finally he's gotten everything he wanted: Fame, recognition for ending the war, Kingship. He brings her flowers because that's the one thing he doesn't have: any real human contact or friendship. Then, of course, she tries to kill him and he kills her instead.

"What did you get out of this, Ramza?" he asks as the game ends.

Ramza got the exact opposite of what Delita got: Everyone hates him (except for the very few people who know the true story) and he's a hunted man. Delita got everything he thought he wanted, but in the end, it turned out power alone was empty. Delita wanted what Ramza had: a loving sister (or just companion) to spend his life with. Now he's alone at the top of the world, and it turns out that his hurt and anger over his sister's death isn't gone.

Jowy, on the other hand, seems to be trying to bring about the end of the war by helping (what he thinks is) the inevitable occur with as little bloodshed as possible. His motivation isn't personal, it's altruistic. Just like Delita he's willing to kill, lie, and manipulate those around him to achieve his goals.

I'll see what happens as the story advances. I would bet his next move is to start gathering support in Highland itself against Luca Blight, since I'm sure it's not just his sister who has noticed that he's a complete fucking psycho. Jowy can't be planning on leaving Luca in charge once he helps Highland win.
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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Mon May 12, 2014 8:09 am

Perhaps you like Delita and dislike Jowy because Delita is confident in his magnificent bastardry, while Jowy spends a lot of time navel-gazing and pontificating whether what he's doing is right and using ellipses seven to twenty-five periods long?

Jowy isn't of noble birth by blood, his stepfather is the one with the estate and title. And while it's not so dramatic as having his sister shot by a crossbow, Jowy has his own disgust with the behavior of the nobility to motivate him. Spoilered for the sake of in-game reveal later: it's the Hilltop Conference. An army is massed at the border of the capital, with several villages razed on the way, and all anyone can do is bicker. Even when the Highland army moves, leaders like Gorudo and Gustav refuse to support Muse's defense. Better to kill 'em all and start over. And with any character in a Suikoden game with a True Rune, you have to wonder just an eensy bit how much is his own motivation and how much is his Rune pushing him into conflict, as Thad said.

For my money the character to watch here is Nanami. (This may be aided by the fact that Jowy is now an NPC and won't be back in the party.)

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Thad » Mon May 12, 2014 4:29 pm

Riou and Jowy are both reluctant champions (as were their forebears in the last war). Since Riou doesn't talk, Nanami gives voice to those doubts. The game's got multiple endings, and 3 out of 4 are built around the essential premise that these two guys wish the Ring had never come to them.

So does the detour to Toran -- Suikoden 1's ending lied.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Classic » Mon May 12, 2014 6:37 pm

Friday wrote:The ending scene after the credits is very, very key to Delita's character: Does he or does he not actually love the Princess?

I feel like maybe he's interesting because his possibly sincere love for Ovelia keeps players invested in his character arc. It might even be sincere, but not as powerful as his self-interest. I feel like trying to decide if someone is a hero who does villainous things or a villain who does heroic things has been treated as easy mode to get audience investment.
It probably also helps that he's a powerful ally whenever you meet him and Ramza (and probably the player) never actually knows that Delita throws him under the bus.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Brentai » Mon May 12, 2014 10:39 pm

I always got the idea that Delita himself wasn't quite in control of his ascension. Most of the power he wields he's accidentally swept into, or takes into his hands because he feels he has to. He hates all of it of course, because the very last thing he ever wanted to be is a backstabbing politician, and that's why he happens to be so effective at it. The ending is pretty much the capper on it all - he has to kill the girl he probably maybe actually loves, or at least has some humanity left for, in order to keep the shaky peace he managed to carve out of Ivalice's political gordian knot from bursting at the seams again. His final words are "I got this." - a thankless, shitty job that he can never retire from. Oh and that corpse over there.

Jowy, on the other hand, is pretty much just exercising questionable judgement all around.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nosimpleway » Mon May 12, 2014 11:40 pm

I dunno about that. Delita set up Orlandu getting framed, which got Delita promoted to leader of the Southern Sky Knights*. Delita then assassinates Goltana, promoting himself from general to king. Uncontested king, considering what Dycedarg did to Prince Larg and the Lucavi in turn did to Dycedarg, and with the support of the church at that (since the church hadn't yet figured out they were getting played themselves).

My big question is: how come we never bothered talking about this when I LPed Final Fantasy Tactics?

* - And freed up Orlandu to accompany Ramza in his fight against the Lucavi, but that's tertiary to the conversation.

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Re: Let's Play Suikoden 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Classic » Tue May 13, 2014 4:32 am

Obviously because how well Delita works is only notable with the contrast of a character who doesn't work as well.

EDIT:
Also my previously mentioned talking-in-the-theater feelings about ranting about shit in LP threads.

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